Balance
By Brian on Nov 30, 2007
In my job at Elon it’s important that I both KNOW STUFF and DO STUFF. If I just do stuff then I’m probably doing the wrong stuff due to lack of knowledge. If I just know stuff then who cares, because the knowledge never does any good.
And the fight between Ross and Tony in the comments in my post about Pine Ridge is the perfect illustration. Ross is on one side saying “we’re doing great stuff” and Tony is on the other side saying “but you’re not really teaching the truth.”
And they’re both right. And they’re both wrong.
We’ve got to do stuff. And we’ve got to know stuff.
Some churches want to “feed the sheep” and they produce a bunch of fat and lazy Christians who are too scared and comfortable to put that truth into action. And some churches want to “reach the lost” and they attract a bunch of people by using current music and good lights and a killer show, and some of the unchurched people who are reached don’t really understand how screwed up we are (sin) and how we need to admit it and let Jesus take over (repentance).
And it seems like both groups have a fear of the other way. The “feed the sheep” group won’t try new things because they think they’ll be accused of being “worldly” or “secular” or “seeker sensitive,” whatever those words mean. And the “reach the lost” group won’t really teach from the Bible because they think it’ll run off anybody new.
Pine Ridge has a shot at doing both.
People can say, “We want you to teach the Bible so we can be fed.” Pine Ridge can say, “The Bible is True and is at the core of everything we do, and we’re going to teach the Bible during that one hour a week in a way that makes you hungry for KNOWING more of it and DOING MORE OF IT the other 167 hours a week.”
People can say, “We want you to reach the lost.” Pine Ridge can say, “We’re going to reach the lost because our people are going to be so completely transformed by Jesus that everyone around them (at home, at work, at school, wherever) won’t be able to ignore the power of God in their lives. And when we’re together on Sunday mornings (and throughout the week) we’re going to be as creative and explosive and innovative as we can be, because if God is creative enough to use a talking donkey and flaming shrubbery and wine and a fish then we’ll be creative enough to use lights and sound and video and everything else at our disposal too.”
Pine Ridge has a shot to do both really well - the doing and the teaching, the obedience and the knowledge. We’re not there yet, but I like our chances.
Brian,
There are clearly ditches to be avoided and a balance necessary, both in the Christian life and the church when it comes to orthodoxy (right doctrine) and orthopraxy (right living/practice). There has been a well known discussion/debate regarding these issues for centuries, and there is good advice to be noticed by both sides of the issue. However, I do not think it is accurate to simply sum up the discussion I had with Tadd (if you call it a discussion) and Ross as an example of this issue alone.
Secondly, the debate of orthodox vs. orthopraxy can’t be painted like a chicken-and-egg scenario because order is important. One can’t take off and follow Christ without first knowing the right gospel, the right Christ, and the right God. Knowledge, and I would add, proper knowledge, of the subject is necessary and required before right living and practice can be obtained. Such is true both for the Christian and the church that desires to be Biblically. Once who doesn’t “know Christ” (Biblically) can’t “follow Christ” (Biblically).
Therefore, a church or pastor that says “we are fundamentally against doctrines…..but we are going to focus on X,” has skipped the first requirement (knowledge) and jumped to the practice part. This is a recipe for disaster, heresy, and spiritual destruction for those who follow them.
While the admonishment of those who are pointing to the necessity for proper Christian living is appreciated, and the exhortation to not focus on doctrine alone is heard, to think one can move into practical “doing” without first learning the necessary knowledge is immature and demonstrates precisely the lack of knowledge they boast.
Those who understand the importance of correct doctrines and who know them, can accurately analyze and criticize those who are “doing wrong” by a lack knowledge, because the doctrines and teachings of the Bible are known and the errors and can recognized, defined, and corrected.
However, those who jump headlong into the “doing” without the necessary knowledge arrogantly and ignorantly criticize those who know the doctrines, because they assume that since these people know doctrines, that they are not also “doing” the living part right. This is a wrong assumption.
That is the big error of many of these types of Christians and churches. They assume that since a Christian or church understands doctrines well, that they ONLY focus on doctrines and never let the doctrines flow into what they do. This could not be further from the truth. Their attitude is, “we’ve got to start this church and ‘do this’ because no one else is ‘doing it.’” However, they do not have the knowledge necessary to proclaim this and are making assumptions and judgments when they think and say such asinine things.
The words you use to describe this are very familiar and sound right out of the Brian McLaren, Rob Bell talking points,
While this may be true in some churches and rightly should be pointed out to them, it is not true of Biblically based, believing, and practicing churches.
It is of the utmost arrogance, ignorance, and highly demeaning, to waltz into a town and proclaim that such is the condition of all churches and therefore one’s desire is to “dominate the county” in reaction. People who start churches in this manner are painting a straw-man in order to start a church that appeals to their own desires rather than focusing on what God’s desires are as demonstrated in His Word. This is idolatry and hubris of the worse kind. God is not glorified nor will He bless such pride.
You say Pine Ridge has a chance. I agree, if they get the gospel right, understand Jesus right, know God rightly, and then proclaim His Word rightly…thus leading to right “doing.” However, from what I’ve heard from the podcast, the gospel isn’t defined at all, Jesus and God are superficially acknowledged, and the “doing” is ended-around any serious attempt to understand them correctly.
Pine Ridge might have a chance at doing it, but it won’t come before Tadd repents of his pulpit rants and desires to “kick out” and “rip the faces off” of those who would try to show him right doctrines which would influence his wrong practices. It is my prayer that this would happen.
tr
Tony Rose | Nov 30, 2007 | Reply
Read the following on Phil Johnson’s blog tonight and thought it had significance to this dialog. The straw-man argument I describe above denies that Christians like this exist:
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2007/11/mystery-quotation-right-doctrines.html
“…a diligent endeavor to have the power of the truths professed and contended for abiding upon our hearts, that we may not contend for notions, but what we have a practical acquaintance with in our own souls. When the heart is cast indeed into the mould of the doctrine that the mind embraceth; when the evidence and necessity of the truth abides in us; when not the sense of the words only is in our heads, but the sense of the things abides in our hearts; when we have communion with God in the doctrine we contend for, — then shall we be garrisoned, by the grace of God, against all the assaults of men. And without this all our contending is, as to ourselves, of no value. What am I the better if I can dispute that Christ is God, but have no sense or sweetness in my heart from hence that he is a God in covenant with my soul? What will it avail me to evince, by testimonies and arguments, that he hath made satisfaction for sin, if, through my unbelief, the wrath of God abideth on me, and I have no experience of my own being made the righteousness of God in him, — if I find not, in my standing before God, the excellency of having my sins imputed to him and his righteousness imputed to me? Will it be any advantage to me, in the issue, to profess and dispute that God works the conversion of a sinner by the irresistible grace of his Spirit, if I was never acquainted experimentally with the deadness and utter impotency to good, that opposition to the law of God, which is in my own soul by nature, with the efficacy of the exceeding greatness of the power of God in quickening, enlightening, and bringing forth the fruits of obedience in me? It is the power of truth in the heart alone that will make us cleave unto it indeed in an hour of temptation. Let us, then, not think that we are any thing the better for our conviction of the truths of the great doctrines of the gospel, for which we contend with these men, unless we find the power of the truths abiding in our own hearts, and have a continual experience of their necessity and excellency in our standing before God and our communion with him.”
Savor those thoughts for awhile…
Tony Rose | Nov 30, 2007 | Reply
I believe that the “lag” time between knowing what you should be doing and doing it is designed to be so small that it should be considered negligible.
Bottom line, the instant you begin to know what the true life of Christ is all about you had better be leaning forward to get off you butt to act on it. Does knowing come first…probably….but only by the margin it took me to read and reply to this thread.
Does it diminish the importance of knowing and constantly striving to know more Biblically based truth? not at all.
Vince Powell | Nov 30, 2007 | Reply
Hey Vince. I would agree with you, but I would say, “definitely,” not “probably.”
A Christian who doesn’t live as Christ commands is a hypocrite at best and quite possibly not even a Christian at worst.
But, someone who jumps ahead of “knowing” and starts “doing” isn’t a Christian either if they’ve skipped over the gospel entirely.
But regardless, the difference here isn’t enough that one has to ride into town and proclaim a new church is necessary because none of the existing once are “doing” anything other than getting fat on doctrine. That’s a silly red-herring, and a boogy-man Tadd intends to “dominate.”
Tony Rose | Nov 30, 2007 | Reply
I agree with not jumping ahead of anything. The doing and the knowing are together, in my opinion.
I’ll even agree that the knowing causes the doing.
There…you happy??
Vince Powell | Nov 30, 2007 | Reply
LOL. Sure.
Love ya man!
Tony Rose | Nov 30, 2007 | Reply
Tony,
I’ve been thinking about Brian’s thoughts on knowing vs. doing and have got to say the 99.9% of the effort involved in accomplishing each of those tasks has got to go towards the doing and 0.1% of the effort goes towards the knowing.
I know a ton of things that are not Biblical but the effort required to eliminate them from my life took and continues to take an enormous amount of effort compared to the fact that I “know” that they needed to go.
Is that fair? Have you found many things to be more a doing thing than a knowing thing?
Vince Powell | Dec 2, 2007 | Reply
Hey Brian…I told you so !!!
Vince Powell | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply
Vince I’m not sure what your bet with Brian was, but I’m pretty sure I can guess.
If it was that I would not reply your message, you are mistaken brother.
I will, I am just not finished yet.
Tony Rose | Dec 3, 2007 | Reply
bring it…brother.
Vince Powell | Dec 4, 2007 | Reply
Vince,
I have responded to your question above, but have posted it over on my blog instead of filling up the comments here. Doing this gave me the opportunity to use hyperlinks for references used and to have my response available to a wider audience.
I have prayed over my words to you and hope you find some meat in them.
Sincerely,
Tony
Here’s the post: http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/knowing-and-not-or-doing%e2%80%a6-the-christian-life/
Tony Rose | Dec 6, 2007 | Reply